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| Dovetail Bit Angle http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=2944 |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:32 am ] |
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I am soon building the jig to do dovetail neck joints. I am wondering what dovetail bit angle is the most common, and why? I think they are usually 14 degrees and 7 degrees (but I am not near my shop to check). Thanks Shane |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:56 am ] |
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Shane I am using 14 degrees. I have also heard of people using 13 and 15 if I remember right. I think 14 is fairly common. Josh |
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| Author: | Dickey [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:38 pm ] |
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Freud off the shelf. Dunno. I could look. |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:45 pm ] |
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If I remember right I received a 10 degree bit with my stewmac templates. Tried it once and I didn't like it. I like 14 much better. I find it easier to tweak when I am fitting the neck. Josh |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:20 pm ] |
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Thanks Josh, I have a 14 degree CMT bit so that is what I will use, I was just a little concerned that that steep of an angle could 'short grain' the pocket and the tenon sides, but if it's being used that is what I wanted to hear, especially since that is what I bought it for. On router bits, woodworking for 25 years, I go out of my way to get CMT bits (orange), I have never had a bad one and I use them for fine furniture work and as well as the largest up cut spirals for Timberframing. They are GREAT! I think the company split a while back and the offshoot was Jescada (white bits) but I have never tried them. Bruce, I would still be happy to hear what others are using. Thanks Shane |
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| Author: | Dickey [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:49 pm ] |
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Yep, I saw the Freud Tool list and I use a 14 degree with 3/4" bearing follower, near the cutter, comes with it. Then to keep that bit from having to hog so much wood I purchased a double flute straight carbide and added a 3/4" bearing follower to it. I do all my hogging with the straight cutter then switch to the dovetail. We are in the minority boys! |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:00 am ] |
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Thanks for the feedback Bruce and Josh. I agree Bruce that we are in the minority, but from what I have seen once you are set up, it is fairly quick, traditional and really ensures a good solid joint. I just worry that a bolt on neck requires too much longterm maintenece. I think that wood will keep compressing in the area of the bolt head over the life of the instrument. I am probably wrong, but if I feel that way then I would have a hard time building it that way. Wood RULES!! Shane |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:43 am ] |
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I guess I am probably in an even smaller minority in that I use a dovetail but hold it in place with bolts instead of glue. It may seem a little weird but it is how I was taught to build. The idea is that the strength is coming from the dovetail but the bolts keep it from moving. It makes it that much easier to disassemble down the road. Also for the beginner is allows a little room for error. I am finishing up guitar #10 and am just starting to get the hang of fitting this joint really well. My first few were a bit sloppy but with the bolts I know that the neck is not going anywhere. I don’t think it is a very common way of attaching the neck but there are a number of great Canadian builders who use this method. Laskin (I think), de Jonge and a few others. Josh |
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| Author: | Dickey [ Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:52 am ] |
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You know, I did it because I wanted a purist traditional joint. So I'm learning each time as well to better fit and finish with this method. I'm also aware that most old Martins require a neck reset by their twenty-fifth birthday. So the question is, is a neck reset covered by the maker's warranty. If so, we need to include it in our pricing schedule. I imagine most makers would gladly reset on of theirs for a period of time with a bolt-on neck. Never looked into it. |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:53 am ] |
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I use and recommend the 7-9? bits, for three reasons: with a tapered dovetail the joint will draw together tighter; you are less likely to break off a wing of the tenon when clamping or if the neck is struck from the side; and you can make a generous tenon without having to cut the mortise too close to the edge of the block, which can be an issue with a cutaway. Cut the center of the mortise (right up to where the dovetail angles begin) out with a straight bit, for sure. |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:02 am ] |
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Good points Howard. I am going to have to look at that when I jig up. Thanks Shane |
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| Author: | CarltonM [ Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:03 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Josh H] I guess I am probably in an even smaller minority in that I use a dovetail but hold it in place with bolts instead of glue.[/QUOTE] Josh, I was thinking of doing that myself, and wondered if anyone else took that approach. It seems ideal for both strength and ease of repair. |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:21 am ] |
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Carlton I would give it a try. I am working on one right now and it will probably be getting th bolt incerts put in tomorrow if I get some time in my shop. I will try to remember and snap a few pics. Josh |
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| Author: | Shawn [ Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:36 am ] |
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Shane, you are correct the guys who runs Jesada came from CMT. I have tried his bits and they are as good as the CMT so I shop one against the other and buy which ever brand is on sale. I have tried the Freud router bits and they are okay but nothing out of the ordinary. In general the better brands such as CMT, Jesada and others may costly slightly more but tend to have a higher grade of carbide so the edge stays sharper longer. In a past life I sold Woodworking machinery for almost 20 years and was one of the original advertisers in Fine Woodworking from the first issue on...now I have way more Woodworking machinery than almost any Luthier would ever want or need. Howard...While I dont build with a dovetail as I build classical with a spanish foot, I would agree with the 7-9 degree angle...the strength of the joint is not determined by the angle of the dovetail but rather the amount of glue surface. From a repair point of view I would rather take apart a 7-9 degree joint than a 14 degree and risk splitting the wings. |
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